[Velro]

Accident du télésiège TSF2 (2CLF) Spillway East, Sugarloaf, à Wachusett Mountain, Maine, USA, du mardi 28 janvier 2010 vers 10h30 heure locale.

Vue la fiabilité habituelle des journaleux les infos sont confuses. Apparemment suite à un déraillement complet du brin montant du câble porteur-tracteur 5 sièges ont heurté le sol blessant 8 personnes (dont une sérieusement). La chute d'environ 5 à 8 m a été amortie par la neige (il avait neigé env. 55 cm le jour prédécent). Le TSD date de 1975.

Reportage avec 12 photos (faire également des recherches pour d'autres articles):
http://www.myfoxboston.com/gallery/news/ph...cident-20101228


Edité:
Voir détails ci-dessous (en particulier update 3). L'accident s'est produit lors d'une opération de réalignement des trains de galets (balanciers) côté montée du plyône No 8 par le personnel technique. Plus précisément, après deux tentatives de réalignement infructueuses il avait été décidé d'évacuer l'installation à vitesse réduite, c'est à ce moment qu'a eu lieu le déraillement complet du brin montant du câble porteur-tracteur au niveau du balancier du pylône No 8.

Ce message a été modifié par Velro - 30 décembre 2010 - 16:34 .

[Velro]

Communiqués de presse officieles de l'exploitant:
http://www.sugarloaf...edia/index.html

Ils ont visiblement une autre idée de la communication qu'en France où l'on applique le principe du "moins le public en sait mieux c'est").


MEDIA ALERT: Lift Incident at Sugarloaf
Tuesday, December 28, 2010

CARRABASSETT VALLEY, Maine – Today, at approximately 10:30am, the Spillway East Chairlift experienced a rope derailment. At this time, we have 5 injured guests with one of the injuries believed to be serious.

All available mountain safety personel are at the scene. The injured parties have been taken off the mountain. Additionally, the remaining guests on the lift are being evacuated now.

As of now, the cause of the incident is still unknown and is under investigation.

The Spillway East chair is A 2 passenger monocable fixed grip chair manufactured and installed by Borvig in 1975. This lift was modified in 1983. Spillway East is 4,013 feet long with a vertical of 1,454 feet. This chair moves at a speed of 500 feet per minute and the chairs are 50 feet apart. Their are 162 chairs on this lift each weighing 140lbs. Spillway East has a 250 horsepower motor and has a capacity for 1,200 skiers per hour. The Spillway Chairs run parallel up the Spillway trail. Spillway East runs to the top of the Sluice Headwall and you can access all terrain below the Spillway X-Cut.

The chairlift receives routine daily inspections for safety. Additionally, the chairlift receives weekly, monthly and yearly maintenance and testing. The lift is also inspected annually for it’s safety from the State of Board of Elevator and Tramway Safety.

Sugarloaf Mountain and it’s employees are concerned for the people involved and the safety of all of the Mountain’s guests.

Sugarloaf Mountain intends to issue updates as required.

***********************


UPDATE: Media alert regarding today's lift incident
Tuesday, December 28, 2010

CARRABASSETT VALLEY, MAINE (Tuesday, December 28, 2010) - Today, at approximately 10:30am, the Spillway East Chairlift experienced a rope derailment. At this time, we have 6 injured guests who have been treated and transported from the mountain.

All available mountain safety personnel are at the scene. The injured parties have been taken off the mountain. Additionally, the remaining guests on the lift have all been successfully evacuated from the lift.

As of now, the cause of the incident is still unknown and is under investigation.

The Spillway East chair is A 2 passenger monocable fixed grip chair manufactured and installed by Borvig in 1975. This lift was modified in 1983. Spillway East is 4,013 feet long with a vertical of 1,454 feet. This chair moves at a speed of 500 feet per minute and the chairs are 50 feet apart. There are 162 chairs on this lift each weighing 140lbs. Spillway East has a 250 horsepower motor and has a capacity for 1,200 skiers per hour.

The Spillway Chairs run parallel up the Spillway trail. Spillway East runs to the top of the Sluice Headwall and you can access all terrain below the Spillway X-Cut.

The chairlift receives routine daily inspections for safety. Additionally, the chairlift receives weekly, monthly and yearly maintenance and testing. The lift is also inspected annually for it’s safety from the State of Maine Board of Elevator and Tramway Safety.

Sugarloaf Mountain and its employees are concerned for the people involved, additionally the resort like to express gratitude to all the safety personnel that have responded to this incident.

Sugarloaf Mountain is absolutely committed to the safety of its guests and employees.

Sugarloaf Mountain will issue updates as more information becomes available.

***********************


UPDATE 2: Sugarloaf Mountain Spillway East Incident Update – 5:00 p.m.
Tuesday, December 28, 2010

Sugarloaf Mountain Spillway East Incident Update – 5:00 p.m.

State Lift Inspector on site; seventh person reported injured

Carrabassett Valley, Maine (Dec. 28, 2010) – An inspector from the State of Maine Board of Elevator and Tramway Safety arrived at Sugarloaf this afternoon to conduct an investigation into the causes of today’s accident on the Spillway East chairlift.

Sugarloaf personnel are assisting in the investigation. Additional engineering personnel are expected to arrive this evening and will join the investigation team on Wednesday.

A seventh chairlift passenger was sent to Franklin Memorial Hospital in Farmington, Maine as a precautionary measure early this afternoon. That individual had been checked at the scene by resort medical personnel and stated that he was fine, but later reported feeling some pain and was transported to the hospital.

For reasons of patient confidentiality, Sugarloaf cannot release specific information related to the identities or medical condition of those involved.

“We’re deeply concerned about those who were injured,” said Sugarloaf spokesman Ethan Austin, “and we’re committed to understanding the cause of this incident. We want our guests to have fun, but our first priority is their safety.”

Austin said that weather conditions at the mountain today were windy, but not atypical for Sugarloaf immediately after a major snowstorm.

Operations on the Spillway East were delayed this morning due to the wind, which diminished by mid-morning. Resort personnel checked the lift prior to opening.

The resort plans normal operations for the remainder of the week with the exception of the Spillway East chair, which will remain closed until the preliminary investigation is completed and the lift is cleared by the State of Maine to resume operation.

Statement Issued Today at the 1:15 Press Conference at the Sugarloaf Mountain Hotel:

Today, at approximately 10:30am, the Spillway East Chairlift experienced a rope derailment. At this time, we have 6 injured guests who have been treated and transported from the mountain.

All available mountain safety personnel are at the scene. The injured parties have been taken off the mountain. Additionally, the remaining guests on the lift have been evacuated.

As of now, the cause of the incident is still unknown and is under investigation.

The Spillway East chair is a 2 passenger monocable fixed grip chair manufactured and installed by Borvig in 1975. This lift was modified in 1983. Spillway East is 4,013 feet long with a vertical of 1,454 feet. This chair moves at a speed of 500 feet per minute and the chairs are 50 feet apart. Their are 162 chairs on this lift each weighing 140lbs. Spillway East has a 250 horsepower motor and has a capacity for 1,200 skiers per hour. The Spillway Chairs run parallel up the Spillway trail. Spillway East runs to the top of the Sluice Headwall and you can access all terrain below the Spillway X-Cut.

The chairlift receives routine daily inspections for safety. Additionally, the chairlift receives weekly, monthly and yearly maintenance and testing. The lift is also inspected annually for its safety from the State of Maine Board of Elevator and Tramway Safety.

Sugarloaf Mountain and its employees are concerned for the people involved, additionally the resort would like to express its gratitude to all the safety personnel that have responded to this incident.

Sugarloaf Mountain is absolutely committed to the safety of its guests and employees.

Sugarloaf Mountain will issue updates on this site as new information becomes available.

***********************


UPDATE 3: Sugarloaf Mountain Spillway East Incident Update - 4:00pm
Wednesday, December 29, 2010

Carrabassett Valley, ME (Dec. 29, 2010) – Inspectors from the State of Maine Board of Elevators and Tramways, along with mountain operations personnel and representatives from Sugarloaf Mountain are investigating the deropement of the Spillway East chairlift, which took place at approximately 10:30am on Tuesday, December 28.

The investigation, which is still on-going, began on the afternoon of Tuesday, December 28. Today, the State of Maine Board of Elevators and Tramways believes that wind was a contributing factor in the lift deropement.

“Our two primary concerns right now are for the rapid recovery of those injured yesterday and the safety of all Sugarloaf guests,” said Sugarloaf spokesman Ethan Austin. “We’re incredibly grateful for the help offered by local and state agencies.”

A detailed report will be issued by the State of Maine Board of Elevators and Tramways once the investigation is complete.

Timeline of incident; mountain personnel response
Sugarloaf experienced winds immediately following the major snowstorm which dropped 22” of snow on the resort this Monday. As a result, several lifts at the resort, including the Spillway East chairlift, were placed on wind hold at the start of operations Tuesday.

Winds diminished as the morning progressed, and Spillway East was evaluated by the ski patrol director of Sugarloaf Mountain and a chairlift mechanic.

That evaluation included towers, top and bottom terminals, and the completion of Sugarloaf’s standard safety checks. The chairlift was opened to the public at 9:55 a.m.

At 10:23 AM, the Lift Operations Department received a maintenance request for Tower 8 from a Sugarloaf ski patroller. Two chairlift mechanics were dispatched at that time. The chairlift cable was observed to be running toward the outside of the rubber liners of the sheave train (the wheels on which the cable is supported) on Tower 8.

At 10:30AM, one lift mechanic arrived at Tower 8 and another arrived at the bottom terminal of Spillway East. Working in tandem, the mechanic at the bottom terminal of Spillway East communicated with the mechanic on Tower 8 while he made an adjustment to the sheave train per Sugarloaf’s operating and maintenance procedures. The lift was slowly started to enable the cable to settle back into the correct location on the sheaves.

The realignment effort was unsuccessful. The mechanics repeated the procedure, again unsuccessfully. The mechanic on Tower 8 determined that it would be inappropriate to run the chair at normal operating speed and the lift should be closed.

Mechanics started the lift at a slow operating speed to begin off-loading the guests who were on the lift.

Shortly after starting the lift at reduced speed, the lift cable deroped from Tower 8, leaving the cable suspended between Tower 9 and Tower 7. Lacking the support of the sheave wheels on Tower 8, five chairs struck the snow below.

When the deropement occurred, the mechanic on Tower 8 immediately notified the mechanic at the bottom terminal of Spillway East about the deropement. The lift was immediately stopped and locked out from further movement.

Ski patrol was immediately notified of the deropement, and lift evacuation procedures began at 10:45 am. At 12:14pm all guests had been evacuated from the lift. Sugarloaf ski patrol estimates that 150 people were evacuated.

Members from ski patrol, grooming department, snowmaking department, resort ambassadors, lift maintenance personnel and the Carrabassett Valley Fire Department responded to the scene. In total, 54 people contributed to the evacuation of the lift.

Update on injuries:
Six people were treated for injuries and sent to Franklin Memorial Hospital in Farmington, Maine. A seventh person, who initially was cleared to leave the scene, was admitted later in the day. Today, Sugarloaf Mountain learned that an eighth guest, who was initially cleared to leave the scene, checked into Franklin Memorial Hospital.

Three patients were transported from Franklin Memorial Hospital to Maine Medical Center in Portland.

Due to patient and family confidentiality regulations, Sugarloaf cannot release information regarding the identity or nature of injuries to individuals. Further updates on the conditions of those injured can be obtained by contacting the hospitals.

Three guests who were unhurt requested to be transported to the base of the mountain after they were evacuated from the lift. One was taken via toboggan and two were taken inside a heated snow grooming tractor.

Status of the Spillway East Chairlift:
The State of Maine Elevator and Tramway Board has noted that there was some damage to lift components due to the deropement. All mechanical components remained in place after the incident and those components are currently being removed and will be analyzed further. The resort plans to replace the damaged parts with new equipment and go through safety testing and inspections prior to reopening the lift to the public.

Other lifts at Sugarloaf continue normal operations.

“Sugarloaf Mountain wishes the best for the people injured in the accident,” said Austin. “The resort remains committed to guest safety and its culture of safety instilled in every employee.”

[dombar]

Une vidéo relative à cet accident :

reportage

[foon]

C'est un télésiège à 4 voies (2 montantes et 2 descendantes)?
Il y a des installations similaires en France?

[Velro]

Ce TSD a été construit par Borvig.


Info 1 sur Borvig (je copie/colle les textes pour référence):
http://www.worldling...nwiki/en/Borvig

Borvig was a chairlift manufacturer based in Pine Island, New York. It was founded by Gary Schulz and manufactured chairlifts from 1962-1991. Following an unsuccessful purchase of Berthoud Pass ski area in Colorado in 1991, Borvig ceased operations in 1993.

In 1996, Partek was founded as the successor to Borvig by Hagen Schulz, the son of Gary Schulz. The company was also the official parts distributor for Borvig lifts.

In 2005 Partek was sold to Doppelmayr CTEC along with all of Borvig's lift designs and patents.

In its 29 years as a lift manufacturer, Borvig installed 260 lifts in North America.


Info 2 sur Borvig:
Site cnesure par l'admin de RM: /old/chairlift_manufacturers_partek.htm

Partek Ski Lifts was a small aerial lift company founded by Hagen Schulz in 1996, the son of Gary Schulz, who was the founder and owner of Borvig Ski Lifts. When Borvig closed in 1993, Hagen Schulz was quick to act and started his own ski lift company.

Using a lot of Borvig's lift designs, Hagen was able to sell two chairlifts his first year to Jiminy Peak, MA and Shawnee, PA. In 2004, Partek decided that it wanted to enter into the high-speed detachable lift market. It's unclear on how far Partek got in its design process for its detachable lift before Doppelmayr CTEC purchased the company January 22, 2005. Along with the purchase of Partek, Doppelmayr CTEC also purchased all of Borvig's lift patents too. Hagen Schulz now works for Doppelmayr CTEC as a sales consultant and runs Ski Lift Parts Inc.

Schulz said of the deal, "It was becoming economically challenging to manufacture and sell new lifts without a complete product line which would have included developing a detachable grip lift. The cost to develop a detachable product would have imposed a significant financial risk to Partek when the ski lift market has little opportunity for growth. The high cost of liability insurance made doing business producing new lifts additionally prohibitive."

During its time as a lift manufacture, Partek was able to install 24 lifts in North America, with its last one being installed at Willard Mountain, NY in the summer of 2005.



Et dans la grande tradition du bricolage amateur des remontées mécaniques U.S.:
Rappel de 2888 pinces de TSD à remplacer:
http://www.saminfo.c...le.php?tid=4466

J'espère seulement que les rares RM européennes qui ont des pièces de RM U.S. (dont en particulier de Yan) seront remplacées dès possible.


Edité:
Service Bulletin original (PDF en anglais):
http://www.saminfo.c...rips_030510.pdf

Ce message a été modifié par Velro - 03 janvier 2011 - 16:50 .

[Velro]

J'ignorais que certains sites étaient censurés automatiquement par RM.


Autre article sur l'accident:
http://www.pressherald.com/news/lift-exper...2011-01-01.html


January 1, 2011
Ski lift expert: Maintenance seems lacking

By J. Hemmerdinger
Staff Writer


In the wake of a cable derailment at Sugarloaf ski resort this week, a ski safety expert who reviewed the last two years of state inspection reports on the resort's chairlifts said he was surprised at the number of problems the documents highlighted.

He also questioned the wisdom of re-starting the lift with skiers aboard once the cable began tracking outside the guidance system.

"There is a lot of stuff here, a lot of things that (the inspector) has keyed in on. It doesn't look like a healthy lift maintenance (program). There is something wrong with nearly every lift," Richard Penniman of Truckee, Calif., said of the inspection reports by the Maine Board of Elevator and Tramway Safety.

A spokesman for the Department of Professional and Financial Regulations, which oversees the board, has said Sugarloaf addressed all of the maintenance items that were identified before receiving its 2010 and 2011 licenses.

Penniman has been assistant operations manager and mountain manager at ski resorts and has trained staff on lift operations. He also taught ski area operations and safety at Sierra College in Truckee, Calif. He has testified as a paid expert witness on ski accidents and lift operations in hundreds of court cases and depositions.

But a spokesman for Sugarloaf mountain said all of the problems mentioned in the most recent inspection were routine maintenance issues.

"All of our lifts, before they are opened, are licensed and inspected by the state and are deemed safe to operate," said spokesman Ethan Austin.

Penniman said the reports noted no significant problems with Spillway East, the lift that derailed.

Among the problems listed that Penniman highlighted were a faulty part on an emergency brake, broken stop switches and problems with the sheaves (the wheels atop the tower that support the cables).

"That is big stuff," Penniman said. "You should have your ducks in a row. There are a lot of significant things that need attention."

On Tuesday morning, the 35-year-old Spillway East derailed as two lift mechanics were trying to fix a misaligned cable. After two unsuccessful attempts to realign the cable, they decided to shut down the lift. As they started to slowly restart the lift to offload passengers, the cable derailed.

Sugarloaf employees and emergency response workers spent the next two hours assisting skiers who were injured in the fall, and using a rope-and-pulley system to remove skiers who were stranded on the lift. The lift had been carrying about 150 people.

Friday night, all known injured skiers had been released from various hospitals.

As for the decision to restart the lift, Penniman said such a move should only be made if the misalignment is minimal.

"It can be slightly misaligned, but it can't be grossly misaligned, when it is touching the metal and off to one side. That is not good," he said.

Austin agreed -- the degree of misalignment determines the safety of running the lift.

"It is common practice at Sugarloaf and throughout the ski industry to run the lift at a slow speed when there is a slight misalignment, in order to run passengers off of the lift. When this happens, lift technicians work in tandem, with one operating the lift and the other on top of the tower to monitor the misalignment," he said.

According to the Sugarloaf news release, the cable was "observed to be running toward the outside of the rubber liners" of the sheave train.

The cable was "not running straight, dead center down the middle," Austin said.

Penniman said the lift cable, which is one-and-three-eighths inches in diameter, is supposed to run through a depression in a rubber liner inside the sheaves.

In cases of misalignments, ski resorts can unload passengers by running the lift slowly, or stop the lift and lower skiers by rope.

"They were trying to run people off the lift . . . But if the lift is not safe to run, it is not safe to run," said Penniman. "If they went, 'Oh my God this is about to fail,' and let it run anyway, they made a mistake."

Chairlifts do have safety measures designed to avert derailment. For instance, so-called deropement switches, also called "brittle bars," are supposed to stop the lift if the cable derails. And cable catchers are supposed to keep a derailed cable from falling. On Tuesday, the cable catcher didn't work.

"Part of the investigation will be to see why those didn't stop the lift from falling," Austin said.

A similar chairlift derailment happened at Whiteface Mountain Ski Center in upstate New York the day after the accident at Sugarloaf, but a cable catcher stopped the cable from falling.

Inspectors from the Maine Board of Elevator and Tramway Safety suspect high winds contributed to the accident, according to a Sugarloaf news release. But they have not ruled out other reasons for the failure of the 35-year-old lift.

According to Mike Cempa, a meteorologist at the National Weather Service, a weather balloon launched from Gray at 7 a.m. on the morning of the accident reported winds at 45 to 50 mph at between 2,000 and 4,000 feet, with higher gusts. Wind speeds declined later that morning, though gusts continued.

Penniman said the lift that failed, a double-chair model made by now-defunct Borvig Ski Lifts, is lighter than newer models and therefore generally has lower wind tolerances.

He said 40 mph winds may, depending on the wind direction, be near the lift's safe limit.

And he said gusty winds are more likely to cause problems than steady winds, because they can cause chairs to swing and knock against the towers.

Austin, the Sugarloaf spokesman, said "there is no specific wind speed which dictates when a lift must shut down."

The decision to stop a lift, he said, is based on a variety of factors, including wind speed, wind direction and how much the chairs are swinging.

"Our lift maintenance staff makes case-by-case determinations based on these criteria."

That's the same policy at Mt. Abram in Greenwood and Shawnee Peak in Bridgton, officials there said. Austin added that crosswinds are more likely to cause problems than wind blowing straight up or down the mountain.

Sugarloaf faces north-northeast and, according to the weather service, the wind Tuesday blew from the northwest, across the Spillway East lift.

Penniman said the Borvig ski lift has been replaced by newer models at most large ski areas.

But older lifts, like older airplanes, are safe if well maintained and operated within safety limits, he said.


‘CLASSIC, OLD LIFT STUFF’

Ski safety expert Richard Penniman said many of the issues noted in the last two state inspection reports of Sugarloaf’s lifts are indicative of older equipment.

• He pointed specifically to metal fatigue, corrosion and electrical problems – “classic, old lift stuff,” he said.

• He said some of the issues might be expected in the fall, when the state inspections were done, because lifts might get less attention during the summer months, and mice, gophers or other small animals can wreak havoc on wiring.

• He added that old lifts are like old cars: they tend to develop more problems during the cold winter months, even if they recently passed inspections.

• Spokesman Ethan Austin said Sugarloaf’s maintenance department is busy all year. “We have a very skilled lift maintenance staff employed year round and they spend the entire summer maintaining and upgrading lifts.”

SKI LIFT MANUFACTURER HISTORY

The Spillway East chairlift was manufactured by Borvig Ski Lifts and installed in 1975.

The manufacturer made lifts from 1962 to 1991 and closed in 1993.

In 1996, Hagen Schulz, son of Borvig Ski Lifts founder Gary Schulz, founded Partek Ski Lifts. Schulz used a lot of Borvig’s designs when first starting Partek. The New York-based company installed 24 lifts in North America before the company was purchased, along with all of Borvig’s lift patents, by Austrian ropeway manufacturer Doppelmayr CTEC in 2005.

As of December 2009, Doppelmayr/Garaventa Group has designed and overseen more than 14,100 installations worldwide. The company is a world leader in the ropeway sector. Doppelmayr USA, Inc. is based in Salt Lake City.

Sugarloaf now works with Par-Tech, a company based in New York, regarding Spillway East.

Sources: www.skilifts.org, www.doppelmayr.com, Sugarloaf

Ce message a été modifié par Velro - 03 janvier 2011 - 16:55 .

[1tibou]

une connaissance m'a envoyé ce lien:
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/le-soleil/actual...t-rarissime.php
en me demandant avec ironie si je monterais toujours sur un télésiège après avoir lu cela.


m'a réponse oui si je suis sur qu'il est bien entretenu et que toute les condition sont bonne (rapport entretient, météo,..)

en avez vous entendu parler?

[Alphaomega]

J'en ai effectivement entendu parlé, mais comme ton site le précise "le transport par câble est un des moyens de transports les plus sécuritaires au monde".

Il est vrai que pourtant des contrôles sont effectués chaque jour :$. Heureusement pas de mort ni de blessés graves Ca doit être impressionnant tout de même !!!

[Velro]

1tibou, le 18 01 2011, 14:33, dit :

une connaissance m'a envoyé ce lien:
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/le-soleil/actual...t-rarissime.php
en me demandant avec ironie si je monterais toujours sur un télésiège après avoir lu cela.


m'a réponse oui si je suis sur qu'il est bien entretenu et que toute les condition sont bonne (rapport entretient, météo,..)

en avez vous entendu parler?

Il y a déjà un sujet ici:
http://www.remontees-mecaniques.net/forums...showtopic=12169

et juste pour info, c'est dans le Maine aux USA, pas au Canada.

[pap's]

Velro, le 18 01 2011, 16:15, dit :

1tibou, le 18 01 2011, 14:33, dit :

une connaissance m'a envoyé ce lien:
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/le-soleil/actual...t-rarissime.php
en me demandant avec ironie si je monterais toujours sur un télésiège après avoir lu cela.


m'a réponse oui si je suis sur qu'il est bien entretenu et que toute les condition sont bonne (rapport entretient, météo,..)

en avez vous entendu parler?

Il y a déjà un sujet ici:
http://www.remontees-mecaniques.net/forums...showtopic=12169

et juste pour info, c'est dans le Maine aux USA, pas au Canada.

je viens de combiner les deux sujets

[1tibou]

pap's, le 18 01 2011, 16:53, dit :

Velro, le 18 01 2011, 16:15, dit :

1tibou, le 18 01 2011, 14:33, dit :

une connaissance m'a envoyé ce lien:
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/le-soleil/actual...t-rarissime.php
en me demandant avec ironie si je monterais toujours sur un télésiège après avoir lu cela.


m'a réponse oui si je suis sur qu'il est bien entretenu et que toute les condition sont bonne (rapport entretient, météo,..)

en avez vous entendu parler?

Il y a déjà un sujet ici:
http://www.remontees-mecaniques.net/forums...showtopic=12169

et juste pour info, c'est dans le Maine aux USA, pas au Canada.

je viens de combiner les deux sujets

désolé pour l'erreur géographique mais étant donné qu'il était mentionné dans l'article québec je pensais que s'était la bas .

merci pour la remise au bon endroit de mon message .

Ce message a été modifié par 1tibou - 23 janvier 2011 - 14:09 .

[1tibou]

que c'est il passé? explication en image:


[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5sBrqMOsJ4&NR=1"]

Ce message a été modifié par 1tibou - 23 janvier 2011 - 14:16 .